An Interview with Joe Pittelli Sensei

Ellen: How did you start training? 

Joe: Well, I have a karate background. I don’t want to say it suited my personality, but karate can be rather aggressive. We each have our own idiosyncrasies and inhibitions; the martial arts bring those out so we can either overcome or look at them. The challenge is you can forget that context really matters. My personality may say I always need to be aggressive, and as a result I may train aggressively, but that’s not necessarily suitable for the outside world. 

Ellen: Did you have a karate practice before coming to zen?

Joe: Yes. My karate practice started in Long Island. My karate teacher (who was actually my second karate teacher), decided to open a school closer to my house. I had been training with his student, so I had to ask permission to leave and join the new dojo. His student wasn’t happy about it, but he did grant me permission. 

 At that new dojo I trained with Zermeno Sensei, who was friends with Heishiki Sensei, until I was a brown belt. At that point, I was told that to become a black belt I needed to go train in New York City.  That's where I was introduced to zazen. 

 I’ll tell you it was quite painful. I can certainly empathize with people’s struggles. We would sit daily and then once a month I was crazy enough to go in and train from 9:00pm-6:00am. I was completely drained and honestly it felt distasteful in the beginning.

Ellen: Did you come to zazen with the same aggression that you brought to your karate training, or did you find you had to meet it differently?

Joe: I met it differently. I mean we sat hard, but it was more of a calming practice for me, and a revitalizing thing for me. When we would sit after a hard karate workout it calmed us down, but we sat with the same intensity we brought to our karate training. Honestly, it took a long time for me to really like zazen. 

Ellen: What was the turning point?

Joe: Either I became more comfortable with myself and/or I became more comfortable with what zazen brought to the martial arts. My karate training changed, and I recognized that. I can’t say that I wasn’t aggressive. I mean I still approach the outside world aggressively and with a lot of energy. Both karate and zazen brought a lot of energy into my life. 

Ellen: Your reflection on aggression is interesting to me. Just the other day, I was telling Kushner Roshi about my experience with you and Dardouni Sensei in Zazenkai. First let me say, it was so wonderful! I walked away feeling very clearly that the two of you were Click & Clack from NPR’s “Car Talk”. I was like, there they are, in the flesh! 

Joe: Haha, I think Robins Roshi said, “We should take it on the road.” 

Ellen: Ha! That’s beautiful. With you as jiki it was the first time that someone really yelled, “WAKE UP!” It was so clean. I’ve never been so happy to be yelled at. It landed in a valuable way for me. I could feel the energy behind it, but it didn’t land in me as aggression. 

Joe: Okay, that is interesting. You know, I couldn’t yell at my wife like that, or even some of my friends. It would be misconstrued. You were obviously ready for it. Because of the training you accepted it and you didn’t take it personally. That’s the thing, it's easy to take things personally, especially through a screen. 

Ellen: It reminded me that zen is helping me get more comfortable with being a beginner, being ‘bad’ at things, and trusting in a process. Trusting that the corrections are a part of that process.  How does that resonate for you? Particularly around your pre-zen karate and zen-informed karate, and a shift that may have happened?

Joe: I’ve always approached things with a lot of energy. And maybe that’s a fault, but I would just dive into things. I wanted to give everything 100%. After a while it just seemed that I needed this. My wife would tell me, “You need to go to Chozen Ji, you need to leave.” She could tell when I wasn’t training. There were times I really didn’t want to train. In fact, I remember one time turning around at the train station and going home. 

 But for the most part I just kept going, I trained 5-6 days a week because I felt like I was a better human being, even with my aggression. I paid attention more, and I was more centered and attuned to the things around me. When I didn’t train, that’s when Janet could tell I needed to go and do something. 

Ellen: I imagine that a lot of the sensitivity you cultivated through that training would be required to train in shakuhachi. Does that feel true? 

Joe: Yes. On the one hand Honda Roshi says, “Blow loud, Blow hard.” That helps you develop the kiai of shakuhachi. But once you get a certain sound or kiai, you have to refine it. If you start off soft, it's a lot harder to build to a bigger sound. 

 Honda Roshi is always stressing to go outside, to feel what’s going on outside and to play according to the rhythm of the day. I don’t always feel I achieve that or even come close, but the practice is helping me become more aware of what’s going on around me. You know there are a lot of really fine shakuhachi players out there that are very technically proficient. But there is a freedom in playing without written music. 

 I remember when I first started playing, a certain music teacher called me up and said, “Hey can we chat?” I said, “sure.” 

He said, “I think you should listen to Rachmaninaff. His music has a certain theme that he comes back to. Or listen to certain blues musicians, they have a thread they repeat and repeat.” Basically, he was saying there was no structure in my playing. But years later after hearing Honda Roshi play, he said, “I finally get it.”

Ellen: Did Honda Roshi introduce you to shakuhachi?

Joe: Yes. I'd heard shakuhachi before, but I didn’t really like it. When I heard him play, I said wait, this is something. He initially told me, “You have the trumpet, why worry about shakuhachi?” That was his way of dismissing me until I was ready. 

 So yes, he introduced me and he’s my teacher. In truth though, a lot of it is self-taught but I go to him when I want to be clear about if my sound is okay, my breath is okay, my kiai is okay. It's a constant rechecking. 

Ellen: How long into your “career” did you start shakuhachi? 

 Joe: Maybe 8 years ago? 

Ellen: Oh wow, so this is a relatively new practice for you?

Joe: Very new. It happened when Honda Roshi was in Spring Green. I became a priest 20 years ago. I think it was 1998. Oh sheesh, I can’t count. I never heard him play when I was in Hawaii for priest training. I’d go every year or two, sometimes skipping because of the expense, but never heard him. When I did finally hear him play in Spring Green that’s when I asked to train with him. 

Ellen: So, you asked because it spoke to you? Or landed in a certain way?

Joe: It definitely landed. I just loved the sound. I loved his sound and how he was playing. There was nothing fancy about it. Some of the traditional music can be hard for me to listen to. It’s actually disturbing for zazen. I can’t imagine sitting zazen to that. There’s way too much jerky, flashy stuff. 

Ellen: The technique.

Joe: It's wonderful stuff, but I’m really happy just being simple.

 One of the problems that I’m experiencing, is that (like I did as a beginner) people want to learn the shakuhachi as an instrument. When I started, I realized I had no one to go to for that because Honda Roshi wasn’t about to teach me that way. He showed me the major and minor scales and a little bit about bending and coloring the notes. Beyond that, technique wasn’t happening. 

So now other people are wanting to learn it as an instrument, and we do have a couple people seeking outside professional instruction. The challenge is to make it clear that playing it as an instrument is not what we’re doing. You can learn that way, but don’t bring it here. 

Ellen: I could imagine cases where learning it as an instrument could support someone’s training but could also get in the way. Would you say that's the risk? That if you get stuck in the technique, it gets in the way of the feel?

Joe: I can give two examples. One student is taking private lessons. This student played a traditional piece for zazen. Initially I thought it would be interesting to see where it goes, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized the piece is typically played with a lot of flashy, jerky technique. 

 So, this student privately played for us and, while it was totally different from how I would play, they took certain techniques of the instrument and really blended them into our training. To play the piece they chose, you have to really develop your breath. Bottom line, I could sit easily to their playing, easily. In the right circumstances, you can trust that the student won’t veer too far. 

 But it's important to be clear about what we’re training. I had another student ask if they could join in our lessons, and I had to draw the boundary. Honda Roshi says, “you have to learn to know when to play what”. We’re focusing on what’s suitable for zazen. If it's not that, then it is not happening.

Ellen: What makes it suitable for zazen?

Joe: There has to be a lot of kiai, the breath has to be long, and after the sound disappears there still has to be a feeling of kiai going forward. When playing ‘normal’ music, it's meant to be flashy. There’s staccato, crescendo, diminuendo, but in our style none of that should be done intentionally. It should just happen naturally. 

 The key is that my playing, or anyone else’s, needs to put you into samadhi. You being in samadhi also makes me go deeper. It's a communication type thing. It might sound a little strange, but it's there. It takes time to cultivate. 

 On the other hand, if I play badly and I’m screwing up your zazen…well, Honda Roshi would also make the point that the sitter needs to be able to handle that too. 

Ellen: Like if your knee is hurting, you just have to sit with that.

Joe: Yes, deal with it. Don’t get caught in your mind asking, “when is this going to stop?” Just sit. Just sit. 

Ellen: So how does woodworking fit into all this? I’ve got my incense burner going right now. I honestly think I won the incense burner lotto with that beautiful piece. Where does woodworking fit into the timeline? Has it evolved or changed with your training?

Joe: Growing up, I was ‘around’ when my father did woodworking. I didn’t actually watch a lot because I was impatient and had a real “I can’t do that” attitude. He was very good at what he did. It seemed like he could do anything. He didn’t give me any formal instruction, but there are certain things I do now that I recognize as being something my dad did too. 

 Whatever I do in my training, whether it's karate, zazen or playing shakuhachi I'm keeping myself balanced in my body and my feet rooted on the floor. If I’m sanding or pushing a piece of wood, it’s always with the breath. I’m not so aware of my hara anymore, but I clearly feel it’s set. The motion is always with my breath, I don't care what I’m doing. I mean it happens even when I’m cutting a vegetable. I’m breathing with whatever it is. 

 What’s interesting is that when I break that cycle, that concentration, that’s when I make a mistake. Every piece I’ve made in woodworking has a flaw in it because either I should have stopped and given it rest, or I broke concentration. It's always towards the end. 

Ellen: For folks that are interested in shakuhachi, can you tell me a bit about the group that’s training together? Is it appropriate for a beginner?

Joe: It’s very beginner friendly. Honda Roshi is there most of the time with me. We’re doing the same thing he taught me. We sit zazen and we take turns playing for a couple minutes while we’re sitting. At the end we leave 15 minutes for questions. Sometimes we’ll do hojo in the beginning to warm-up. 

 In a way we’re each on our own and doing our own training, but I’m also here to support folks. For those that want to start, I would recommend that they reach out so that I can help them get a sound going. I want to make sure people are comfortable joining the group. I don’t want anyone to be put in a discouraging position. The good news is that corrections are always the same, “your breath needs to be longer.” 

Ellen: I think my last question would be, is there anything else that stands out as something that is or has been fundamental to your zen training? Is there a thread that’s carried through everything?

Joe: My thread would be my zen teachers. Every one of them. They all have differences and different ways of teaching, but I know that each and every one of them cares so much. So, it doesn’t matter how they correct, I know that they have my interest at heart. Beyond that, it's zazen itself and what it brings to my life. It is the clarity and sensitivity that I try to bring into my work and life. Zazen allows me to recognize this and do what is appropriate.

Ellen:I really feel that Joe. Thank you so much. This has really been a delight.